Pike Angling Ireland

Hi

Read an interesting piece about this on the Pike Angler Club of Great Britain website where they maintain that it damages the fishery, even for game anglers. I know some FBs here still engage in this albeit some of the pike get dumped into waters like Derryhick lake down the road from me... just wondering (and I know it is contentious) what the overall view of the angling public / angling constituency is?

i think it pretty well documented that removing big pike from any water is detrimental in the long run.

if you kill off all the top predators, say the big ones that will get caught in gill nets, then the small pike will proliferate.

so now instead of having say 25 10-20lbs pike (a biomass of maybe 3-400lbs of pike) you are left with hundreds of jacks with a biomass oF much more than the pike you have removed. thats bad news for trout and he ecosystem in general. and how do you control hundreds of small pike?

you dont.

Hmmm maybe thats what happened to a place i was fishing last weekend We were float fishing for roach/Rudd etc but i think we caught more small Jack Pike I think thats the first time i have caught Pike on sweetcorn and Maggots on a size 16 hook...was very strange..i couldn't get over the amount of small Jacks being caught!

The scientific advice the boards have is that removal of pike increases the number of salmonid fish in a lake. The western lakes are managed for game fish - that's stated policy. Ergo - the boards remove pike to increase trout stocks.

Larger pike are tagged and released back into the lake, smaller pike are removed, many of them are stocked into other smaller lakes that are not managed for game fish.

The scientific advice comes from the work of the CFB over decades - data from lakes with stock management in place and lakes without - the clear advice is that trout numbers increase when pike numbers are controlled.

Seeing as the trout fishing is vitally important to the tourist industry around the western lakes, I don't see this policy changing

hi bradan

i would like to see what data they are working with as i think its making the situation far too simlistic by saying "if you take out the pike then the trout do better", what kind of fishery was this research carried out on? do you think the results from the test fishery really have any bearing on lakes with such huge and difficult ecosystems to manage as mask, sheelin and corrib etc?

i think its been well documented internationally that the best control measure for limiting numbers of small pike is to have some big pike to do it for you. You take out the top predators (big pike) and you have an increase in smaller pike and an increase in overall pike biomass to the detrement of other fish.

how would you propose they selectively control small pike of 1-4lbs without killing trout of the same size in lakes the size , gill nets? not easily done even if you target pike in spawning bays

as far as i can see nearly everything that is being done to the western lakes like euthrophication, zebra mussel spread, new weed growths and gill netting is just giving the pike and other non salmonid species more of a foothold.

you see the way i see it is that the boards seem to be making one fatal assumption, that is if you lessen the number of pike and lower the overall pike biomass then salmonids may be helped and that may be possible on smaller systems where you can control theings more easily. But... as far as i can tell their tactics can never work on th big loughs and in the long run will as best break even and at worst make hings more difficult for the trout

not entirely applicable but see here

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/authors/leon14.htm

i stand to be corrected and would be interested to see if the board or anyone could point me to any research in any journal that concludes that gill netting in any large lake of river system helps trout numbers. maybe there is but i have never seen any

its a tough call and if there was a workable system i would not be against it just because i fish for pike, i fish for all species and am as happy catching pike as i am trout or salmon so i am not saying all this beacuse i favour pike and for my own reasons...i just dont think they are getting it right

of course they could always do what the californians do and poison the whole lake

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/news07/07008.html

Adam, if I was still working on the scientific side of things I might be able to point you to the data, but I'm not unfortunately, and don't know the full facts myself. I have seen Dr. Martin O'Grady of the CFB present findings of lake surveys - and his recommendation is that small pike should be removed where stock management for game fish is policy. This is the advice the regional boards follow. The CFB have data on lake surveys going back over 40 years from lakes all over the country, including the large western loughs, so they have a huge database.



The boards are also trying new electro-fishing techniques - using boat electro gear in shallow bays where pike gather for spawning - hopefully this will prove successful in targeting the smaller pike. It will never completely eliminate gillnetting, but hopefully there will be less bycatch. As it is, bycatch of trout is quite low - I'd guess trout avoid pike spawning areas at that time of year, I know I would if I was a trout



There's not much more the boards can do about those other things - eutrophication is hard to stop, especially given the power of the farming lobby in this country. Zebra mussels here now - see news last week on coarse lakes in Corrib system. New invasive weeds - sure they're sold in garden centres - how are we supposed to stop those getting in when the govt won't ban their importation??



That certainly one view, but the boards have to listen to the best scientific advice available to them and act on that. At least 2 of the boards, and the thousands of local trout anglers, would be quite certain that it has worked on the western loughs, and would be adamant that it should continue.



Exactly - its a tough call - and its a very bitter argument with some people. Obviously pike anglers are dead against it, trout anglers are all for it. Personally I'm undecided - I'd like to review the data myself, but hey, I've got bosses, and I have to do what I'm told too.....



I think we'll put that one on the long finger for now eh....

i hear what youre saying bradan, but would the local anglers really say it has worked? was there ever a problem with pike that needed to be dealt with? perhaps up till now it has worked but with the ecology of the loughs going ever more in the pikes favour i would wonder whether it will continue to work when it comes to the crunch. i fish some rivers that hold pike (in the rivers and the loughs they run into) and have had great trout fishing the last few years with river fish of 5,6 and 7, along with great pike fishing, no masses of jacks. cant excellent pike and trout fishing go together i wonder.

is a total biomass of about 10% pike really that bad? is it worth all the effort? would the time and money not be better spent elsewhere? are the pike just an easy visible target because they come up and snatch trout whereas the other threats are more incidious? those are the kind of things that would concern me as a trout angler. as a pike angler i am not going to lament the death of a pike just because its a pike.

but as someone who trout fishes the west, and my dad is off down to corrib tomorrow for a week, i would worry more about the overall impact of messing with the balance of place like mask or corrib, that lets face it are too huge for man to be able to control the system in the way he wants.

as a scientist myself it just doesnt sit right with me, but..i hope they prove me wrong (i would fear they wont)




i genuinely hope for the lakes we have left that they get this one right

As far as the rest of your post goes Adam - all valid points and questions. But the one above - if you lived here and dealt with trout anglers all the time - you'd know how much they detest having pike in the lake - it probably is image, and its the most obvious threat to trout, but thats the psyche of the anglers here - if a bunch of pike anglers turned up protesting about the gillnetting they'd get short shrift from local anglers!
Believe me, if the anglers were responsible for stock management there wouldn't be a pike left alive after spawning time...

then maybe its lucky for us all that they arent

thanks for the responses

I've had enough so here's my piece

I'd have to agree on that Bradan. it is all about the psyche of the trout angler and nothing more than the Fisheries Boards bending over to them! I know trout anglers in the Sligo area who would eradicate all course fish including Rudd that some times come to the fly and are a "nuisance" and not needed. As for obvious threat to trout what about perch, cormorants, water quality I don't see the Fishery Boards acting on these so why the Pike, Why are they so OBVIOUS.

The boards have pike management policy's in place as a PR stunt "look we are doing our best" idea and not tackling the big issues water quality and invasive aliens ie Zebra Mussel yeah OK they are here no chance of getting rid of them now but are steps been put in place to stop other unwelcome guests. And yes if trout angler protested about gill netting the fishery boards would stand up and take notice but not for pike anglers. The NWFB answer to me when I started up the Sligo Pike Protection Group for Lough Gill with over 80 people was And I quote "Do you want us to take more out" they are currently electrofishing the Lough Gill system targeting two bottle neck areas where salmon swim up the Garavogue River to the Lough and again at the River Bonnet where Salmon/ Trout head up from the Lough to spawn. We asked could the size of fish taken be reduced and could they be released into areas of the Lough away from the bottle neck areas as the lough is 5 1/2miles by 3 1/2 mile so plenty of room and could the trout and salmon stock be increased by a stocking programme rather than pike policy. We were first meet by a nice man I'm sure like yourself who end up telling us "I've got bosses, and I have to do what I'm told too..... " and when we spoke to his boss we were told the above so don't tell us that the trout angler haven't a larger lobby group in Ireland most aren't ur ordinary working man still the same as it's always been that bring money to these areas in the west sure isn't this Trout lobby group taken the water quality issue to the European court. Where are THE BOSS's on that one?

I trout fish, pike fish, sea fish anything that will take a bait or lure or fly so don't accuse me of been byist here!

I'm no scientist but I know enough about wildlife that if you take out the top predator a new one will emerge and I'd think in Ireland this has to be perch, so are the Fishery boards going to eradicate them as well wouldn't be the first time perch have been culled in this country ie Lough Conn.

Or would they ask me "Would I like them taken out as well"

My end statement on this is that the Fishery boards haven't the power when it come to government and are push overs for the larger lobbies in this country and pull PR stunts to pacify them. To the detriment of the fish stocks which have gotten on with it for hundreds of years before industry, farming practices and policies interfered. Sorting out the water quality would be to big an issue for them as they would step be stepping on to many toes, Question "would you drink the water from any of the lakes in Ireland" ?
But its alright for the fish to live in!

Hi all,

very interesting and very important, everyone has a view, and mine quite simply is that trout fishing is worth more than pike fishing to the economy,so pike are not as important (in the eyes of some) so our friend the pike suffers. but why does the goverment always let commercial ventures have all the say until its too late, look at the state of our salmon fishing, it has been ruined by years of drift netting and by our lovely friendly earth loving farmers, solution-close all salmon waters or restrict them and kill of the pike, farmers and drift nets have ruined the salmon not the pike, eco systems are very sensitive and all fish have a place in them- take out the big pike and as adam says, small pike explosion, thats a fact why is that hard for people to understand? do you think its a good idea to have lots and lots of small pike?, because they will kill lots of trout... I know a great man for looking after small pike,perch,roach,rudd,bream,and yes game fish but in a natural and healthy way... these are my opinions, I am an angler who loves all fish, and all types of fishing. I want good fishing for all,

It would be far better if the sheep were culled from the hills around the great lakes, perhaps the water wouldn't run off so quickly then. This in turn would stop the scouring out of the gravel and trout redds, which again in turn would lead to better recruitment of trout.
Also stopping the removal of gravel from streams by locals to use on their driveways would help the trout.

Regarding the return of tagged fish from the nets, has anyone witnessed this? Seeing how the fishery boards have reneged on the netting agreements, I wouldn't believe I thing they say.

Colin

This morning, a German friend, who lives here since around 35 years told me a story which I found difficult to believe at first:

Going out for a sailing trip on Lough Derg yesterday, he watched a high powered rib and a few other vessels from the SRFB setting up gill nets around the area of Glenbower and Black Lough near Ilaunmore Island. On his return later in the afternoon, he discovered what he stated was the biggest pike he ever saw here on the lake, at least 120-130 cm in length and a massive girth, floating belly up and dead, washed ashore into the rushes.
As he returned from his sailing trip when these people he watched setting up their nets when he went out already had packed up their equipment and left Glenbower Bay, there was no one there to enquire or ask for an explanation, he rang me to ask if if I new about it.

As I did not see similar activities here in the past, and I live in this part of the country since 1994 and used to come to Ireland to fish since 1986, (firstly I suspected poaching, happened here before) and checked on-line for info, only to stumble upon this thread here, which left me stunned with disbelief.

Reading all the above posts, I believe it is not acceptable that valuable and magnificent fish like pike are culled - or to put it precisely as I feel - destroyed as unwanted vermin here in Ireland.

Many other environmentally concious European countries throughout the EU and worldwide are proud of their indigenous wildlife and strive to protect their invaluable natural resources for recreation and a source of revenue through tourism and related industries, but what is common practise in Germany, Austria, Belgium, Holland, Sweden to name but a few, seems to be very difficult if not impossible to be achieved easily here, what leads me to the conclusion that fisheries and tourism management boards could be in dire need of revision.

What could possibly be the point of pike protection, of bylaws and other regulations, of organisations and clubs constantly preaching C&R practise et cetera when the real damage occurs from publically financed bodies?

Please read the comments here

http://www.totalcoarsefishing.com/cgi-b ... 44564412/0
http://www.angling-in-ireland.com/pages ... 0Sheet.htm

about the damage this practise has caused already.

FWIW

i have watched pike in the water with dozens of smaller fish like perch, roach, rudd and trout, and i do not think pike make any difference to the water, infact i have found that the more pike that are in a fishery the more of the other species there are, simply because if one smaller species dies, it will eithe sink or float and begin to rot, releasing diseases in the water, where as if there are pike the most of the of the dead or dying fish will be eaten before disease spreads.